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  All Moms Go To Heaven by Dean Hughes
 
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In his new book, All Moms Go to Heaven, Dean Hughes recalls the summer of 1973, the summer he spent taking care of the kids while his wife, Kathy, worked on her master's degree. After a few weeks of drying tears (sometimes his own), changing diapers, and watching Sesame Street, Dean came to understand what mothers really do and why they're so important.

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The following interview, "Everyday Lives, Everyday Values Interview with Dean Hughes, author of All Moms Go to Heaven" originally aired on KSL Radio on May 8, 2005:

Host: Doug Wright

Doug: Today we have a guest--one of my favorite guests to have on this program--Dean Hughes joins us now. And we know Dean from his great series of books, and so many other things, too. Known in the national market for his great accomplishments, but today, Dean, you've really got me. And I got this book, All Moms Go to Heaven, and I thought, "Okay. That's cool for Dean to write about that." But then I read on the back, "Some might wonder whether a man really knows much about motherhood. But I can talk with a certain degree of authority. After all, I was once a mother myself." And then I turn to Chapter 1, page 1: "I Was a Mother." Now....

Dean: Well what I say right after that is, "Not that I gave birth."

Doug: Yes.

Dean: Although I would have been willing to.

Doug: Yeah. Let's walk through that. When were you a mom, Dean?

Dean: In 1973, so it was quite a while ago. A year after I finished my degree and I started teaching at Central Missouri State University out in Missouri, my wife got a chance to go back to school for the summer and work on a master's degree. And she got paid to do it, and we desperately needed the money. So it was a chance to get some more education plus get a grant, and so she took the job and I stayed home with the kids. Well, the kids were five and three and three months--a new baby--and then there was a woman in our department who was teaching that summer, and I wasn't, and she needed a babysitter. So I took her nine-year-old daughter and her seven-year-old daughter, so I had five kids all day.

Doug: You're telling me.

Dean: Plus, my wife--we were so broke--she got a part time job, and she was gone in the evenings four evenings a week. So, many of those days I had the kids from morning all the way until about ten o'clock at night all by myself. I've been a mom.

Doug: I am just flabbergasted. I mean, talk about above and beyond the call. That is--you're making the rest of us look bad, Dean.

Dean: Well, if you read the book you'll find out I didn't make anybody look bad because I had a lot of trouble at that job.

Doug: All Moms Go to Heaven. What really motivated this book? And this is the perfect time of year, of course, to talk about it with us celebrating moms and all of the wonderful things that they do.

Dean: Yes.

Doug: Although, Mother's Day is a bit of a unique experience for everybody--we were talking about that off the air. What motivated the book?

Dean: You know, it's funny what happened. I, you know my wife is in the General Relief Society Presidency, and I was talking to Bonnie Parkin one day--the president of the Relief Society--and I was telling her about this. And I was telling her about how hard it was and how miserable I was and how it was the most miserable summer of my life.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: And, you know, talking about cloth diapers and all those things I dealt with, and she just could not stop laughing. And she said, "You need to write a book about this."

Doug: Oh, yeah.

Dean: So I was talking to the editors over at Deseret Book and mentioned it. And after a while one day, Chris Schoebinger at Deseret called up, and he said, "I've got the title for the book, and you need to write it. It's called, All Moms Go to Heaven." So I wrote it last fall and it just came out.

Doug: You write so many different things. I mean, baseball is a passion, your study of the era of the `60s in which both you and I grew up, and then back in the World War II generation, and so much research required for those, so much meticulous care. How different is it to write--not that, of course, there wasn't meticulous care, maybe I ought to put research into this--but how different is it to write something like this?

Dean: This was really easy for me because it was a memory, and I had, there were just so many funny things that happened that summer. And then, I saw sort of a natural organization that first I'd tell about my own experience and how funny it was and at the time not funny at all.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: But then I thought about my daughter--my daughter, Amy, who lives here in Salt Lake and has four little ones and, as I tell about it in here, with her husband in the bishopric and her trying to get her kids through sacrament meeting, that kind of thing....

Doug: Uh-huh.

Dean: And then I have these two daughters-in-law who live here in Utah, and so I interviewed them and I said, "What's it like to raise kids now?" And just the implication alone of car seats and buckling your kids in the car has changed life for these young mothers, you know.

Doug: That's right.

Dean: Every time they try to do anything they've got to put all those kids in the car and get them all buckled up and head to the store and get them out and, you know, all those things. And then I was interested in writing about my wife as a mother compared to me as a mother and my wife as a grandmother, which she does so well. And then, finally, I wanted to talk about my own mom.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: And so it goes from humorous to pretty touching, to me, as I actually try to talk about my own mom because no matter how much we may make fun of this whole difficult process, when we start to talk about our own moms something happens to us.

Doug: Oh, yeah. Isn't that true? Something really does click. You know, you said something that rings so true for me. And when D. and I were having our babies, it was just at the beginning of the point where they would basically hold your child hostage and you could not leave the hospital unless you had a properly-installed car seat. But I think, when I was a kid the baby would be on the front seat and kids were crawling all over the place.

Dean: I know.

Doug: I shouldn't even say this--this wasn't with my mom, this was with somebody else--but I can remember crawling back up in that little space in the rear window and going to sleep.

Dean: Oh, yeah.

Doug: You know? And standing backwards, sitting on somebody's lap, driving the car down the block.

Dean: Windows wide open because there's no air conditioning.

Doug: Oh, yeah. And now, you know, we'd all be arrested for child abuse if we did that.

Dean: That's right.

Doug: So there are some interesting challenges. You know, sometimes we talk about the good old days.

Dean: That's right.

Doug: You know, but there are some tough things today. When you go back to that summer of `73? Is that right?

Dean: Yes. The summer of the Watergate hearings.

Doug: Oh.

Dean: And I listened to the Watergate hearings as my soap opera.

Doug: Boy, and it was a soap opera, wasn't it? What did that do for you? I'm just curious.

Dean: Well, you know, first of all, I really did get depressed. I mean, I joke about it in this book, but eventually I make it clear that it was not very funny to me much of the time. I would get up in the morning, and what I would find is that I had nothing to look forward to. I thought I would read and get some of my classes prepared for the fall and I would do various things.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: I had no time for myself. It was just get through the day. And even though I knew it was only going to be three months, and so you'd think I could just say, "Oh, well, I'm just going to do this for three months and it'll be over with," to me three months started to seem like an eternity. I just, all I could think was, "I can't get through this. Another day just like yesterday."

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: And, you know, it was so funny because Kathy would come home, and I'd try to talk to her, you know, I wanted to talk to an adult.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: And I'd try to explain how hard it was, and she would just roll her eyes like, "You think I don't know this?" But it really was an amazing insight for me. You know, we all think, "Oh, it must be hard to raise little kids," but until you've been there day in and day out for an extended period you don't know what it's like. So it really did change my perspective. And I think, a couple of things I talk about in the book, one is that I think it really was a good experience for me with my kids, and I think it's helped to be close to them in a lot of ways.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: In some ways a little closer than I might have been otherwise. But I think it also gave me a lot of understanding of what mothers go through.

Doug: Oh, there is a big difference between sympathy and empathy.

Dean: Yeah.

Doug: And to put yourself in that arena, I have never done it to the degree you have. But for a day or two here and there, over a weekend or whatever, and you're right. I mean, just the thought of this going on somewhat indefinitely. And I think, too, you know, and something I've often wondered about this with moms, sometimes right after having given birth, the physical wear and tear on the body, the hormonal changes that are going on postpartum, I don't know how they do it, Dean. I don't know how they do it.

Dean: You know, last night our little daughter-in-law had her second child, and we were at the hospital. And I looked at her when it was all over--and she didn't take anything. By the time she wanted some medicine it was getting too close.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: So she was exhausted, and she was lying there looking pretty and tired, and we were all fussing over this little baby. And, you know, it was a great moment, but I thought, "Day after tomorrow she's going to have to go home."

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: And now she's got two little guys to deal with. And, you know, she's got a little boy that's just turning three who's going to be jealous of all the attention given to the baby and all those dynamics take over.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: And I just thought, "She's got some difficult days ahead." And those early days when they're crying so much at night...

Doug: Oh, yeah.

Dean: ...until you get them on a schedule and all that, it's just a very hard job.

Doug: Let's move to the next segment of the book.

Dean: Okay.

Doug: After your profound experience back in 1973 we move on, and you've already mentioned all your daughters and daughters-in-law.

Dean: Yeah.

Doug: And they're in a different world.

Dean: Yeah, they really are. I think so much is expected of them for one thing.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: There're so many demands upon them, and things are a lot more organized these days so you get your kids into all these programs and you're running them around to everything. I mean, I think when I was a kid mom could kind of at a certain point say, "Go play."

Doug: Oh, yeah.

Dean: And we would go outside and just stay outside.

Doug: We would do that, too. We'd check out until noon. We'd show up when we were hungry.

Dean: Yeah.

Doug: And then sometimes, at such a young age, Dean--and we've chatted about this when we talked about your other books and what downtown Salt Lake was like--I can remember in the fourth grade hopping on the bus at Fairmont Park going downtown to see a movie.

Dean: Yeah.

Doug: You know, can you imagine today?

Dean: I lived close to town in Ogden and I used to walk into town all the time.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: I think one of the pressures that young mothers feel--and maybe they always have but I think it's even worse now--is a lot of judgment, "Am I pulling this off as well as I'm supposed to?" and comparing themselves to other mothers. And I have a whole section in here about my daughter-in-law was with a book group. You know, you want to read, you want to do some things.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: But her little toddler was too little to leave at home so she takes the baby with her, and he grabs some stuff that's on a table, pulls the tablecloth and throws everything down. Then his diaper starts to leak--and as I call it in the book--solid waste.

Doug: Yeah. Ooh, yeah.

Dean: And she is so humiliated in front of these women, you know. In fact, right after that I have a little piece that I could read. Do we have time?

Doug: Oh, absolutely. Please. Let's read it.

Dean: Right after that I talk about how mothers compare each other too much, and I say, "Of all the people who understand one another, mothers ought to lead the way. Unfortunately that's often not the case. Young mothers try to polish up their kids for church while their husbands are off doing church work as often as not and then feel a little sick inside because Sister Smithers' kids look better than their own. But we really ought to back off on all that kind of stuff. Once we meet the perfect mother, who really only raises her dreadful head in Mother's Day talks, we should shrine her, build a statue to the unknown mother, and then admit that she's the only example of perfection who will ever exist. We could maybe give out little statues of her on Mother's Day in sacrament meetings made out of chocolate, and then the mothers could take her home and bite her head off and get a nice chocolate rush at the same time."

Doug: Isn't that true? I've seen in it in my own family. You know, while you like to think that we all understand, you know, but I have walked home from church with D. where we went, "Oh man, our kids did this and our kids did that. Did you notice that their kids were so perfect?" But it's just a matter of time. They'll get theirs.

Dean: I always say that before you have kids you wonder what's wrong with those people that they can't keep their kids quiet.

Doug: Oh.

Dean: While you have kids you wonder why others aren't more understanding. After your kids are grown up you turn to your wife and say, "We kept our kids under better control than those people do."

Doug: Yeah. Let's take a break. We'll come back and talk more about All Moms Go to Heaven. Dean Hughes is our guest on Everyday Lives, Everyday Values.

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Doug: We're back on Everyday Lives, Everyday Values. All Moms Go to Heaven. You know, we need to talk for just a moment before we talk about the real mom and teen angels and your mom, this idea of the perfect mother. I want to spend just a breath more on that because I've seen that actually be a problem for some women.

Dean: It is.

Doug: That they walk home from Mother's Day and they hear the little talks and they hear nothing but perfection and they just go home and go, "What is wrong with me?"

Dean: When I was bishop I used to have women come in after Mother's Day and sit in my office and say, "I can't do it. I'm not like all those other mothers." And they have it in their heads that every other mother is doing the job exactly the way it's supposed to be done and they're just not pulling it off.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: You know, I think to some degree it's almost as though we use Mother's Day to describe the mother we would like to have. You know, this servant who always takes the small piece of pie, who's self sacrificing, and it's almost like we say, "Okay. We thank you this one day for that. Now, go back and do it some more."

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: Instead of saying, "I think I'll start taking the smallest piece of pie." You know, we sort of perpetuate the image.

Doug: That's right. It can be a very unique day. Let's talk about "A Real Mother." What motivated this chapter?

Dean: Well, you know, trying to show what the reality is. And I talked about some different levels of this. On the one hand I talk about my daughter who has four children who are nine and under now, but a year ago when she had a new baby they were eight and under and her husband was in the bishopric.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: And that just happens so often, and for her to get through sacrament meeting, get through the three-hour block of meetings, but especially sacrament meeting, and get her kids home, she was exhausted by the time she would get home. And especially I describe what it's like to be getting those four kids ready at the same time while your husband's gone off to early meetings.

Doug: Right.

Dean: And that happens so often because so many of these young mothers in our church have that situation where their husbands are serving in some way and are gone in the morning. And just what it would, the pressure that it would put on her. And, you know, the little thing of, you need to run a quick errand, and you don't have a child old enough to look after your little child so you've got to pile all four of them in the car....

Doug: The car seat.

Dean: Yeah. The car seats and the buckles and all of that.

Doug: As far as your mom. Now we're almost, we're rapidly running out of time. And as you mentioned earlier we can talk about moms, the philosophy of it, the work of it, the different stages of it, but boy, when we get to our mom, boy it's a whole different world whether you're male, female, whatever age, it doesn't matter. Your mom's something special.

Dean: Yeah, and you know, I think, my dad was not an active church member--or at least he wasn't most of his life--and had some alcohol problems, and he was a kind of a tough man. He didn't show a lot of emotion, he wasn't very close to the kids so it kind of put everything on Mom. And I talk about that, and I try to do it with respect for him because he was a good man and he tried very hard. But my mom, you know in my mind, is just beyond anyone else's mom. You know how we all feel about that.

Doug: Sure.

Dean: And she, you know, she would go out in the fall, she didn't work normally, but she would go out in the fall and she would work at a tomato, a ketchup factory. And she would peel tomatoes. And she had carpal tunnel problems, and I've had both my hands operated on so I know what that's all about.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: But in those days they didn't have the surgery, and she would peel those tomatoes until she would come home with her hands just all gripped up. But she would do it so we could have a nice Christmas.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: And then she would put on this great Christmas for us that Dad would not have provided. I tell a story in here about the one year my dad gave me twenty dollars and I went to Penney's and bought a dress for her that she loved so much and would wear for years after. And with Christmas I also talk about Kathy who loves Christmas so much, my wife who loves Christmas so much and what she tries to do as a grandma for our kids.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: And so I do talk about the joys of being a mother and, well, my daughter put it well, she says, "It's the greatest training program you could ever go through."

Doug: Since you have been a mother, and if you were to pass along any advice to moms, particularly at this time of year, having been a bishop, having been an author, and having been a mother yourself, what would you say?

Dean: Well I think the biggest single thing is for people to get off their own backs, to recognize that it's just a hard job and you're going to mess up at least a few times every single day. At the end of every day you're going to look back and say, "I wish I hadn't gotten so short with one of the kids," or "Why did I have to be so intent upon this? I could have been a little softer there," or, and this is what I often felt, "I should have been teaching them more." You know, because I would pick up their toys for them. My wife would come home and say, "You know, you shouldn't do that, Dean. You should teach them to pick up their own toys." But I would say, "But it's a lot easier to pick them up myself."

Doug: Isn't that true?

Dean: So there's always that thing, "Am I teaching my kids enough? Am I too hard with them? Am I too soft with them?" And I think at some point you have to say, "You know, they turn out pretty well." It's not that they always do, because we know there're some kids who don't turn out well at all in this life, but it's not necessarily your fault either when that happens.

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: And I just think that to just relax a little bit about it more. If I could do it over I would go back and say, "Man, this is three months I'm never going to have again. Quit being so uptight about it and enjoy it as much as you can."

Doug: Yeah.

Dean: That's what I say now.

Doug: Yeah, that's right.

Dean: Whether I could really do it I don't know. But I wish I had enjoyed it more at the time.

Doug: I've got a confession. I have to admit that when I saw the title of this and I saw, All Moms Go to Heaven, I thought, "Maybe it meant all moms go to Midway." You know?

Dean: That's right. That's where heaven is.

Doug: Exactly, based on a previous work of yours. What are you working on now, and when are we going to have the next in the series, The Children of the Promise?

Dean: The last book of Hearts of the Children will be out this fall, about Conference time. I'm all finished with it now.

Doug: I called it Children of the Promise, didn't I?

Dean: Well yeah, but that's all part of it.

Doug: This is the continuation of it. Yeah.

Dean: Yeah. And then I've got a young adult novel on the national market coming out this fall that's about Vietnam called Search and Destroy, and that book's finished. So I'm going to do a new thing, it's not part of any series, it's an individual novel, but I'm going to go back to World War II again. And I'm going to write a novel that will be set down in Delta, Utah, and I'm going to use the Topaz Relocation Camp as part of the plot in that with a little Mormon community and with the relocation camp nearby and some things having to do with that.

Doug: The title of the book that we're talking about is All Moms Go to Heaven. Dean Hughes has been our guest. And Dean, thanks so much for joining us.

Dean: Great to be here.
 



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